@me @benroyce Some people, understandably, are extremely opposed to genocide. Kamala Harris let people think that a vote for Kamala Harris is a vote for four more years of genocide in Gaza. She did nothing to persuade people that that would not be the cost to Palestinians of a vote for her. She is often smart but it was stupid of her not to allow anyone to speak against genocide at the Democratic National Convention. I voted for her but this was a disappointment.

@RonSupportsYou @benroyce I 100% agree, and I think I understand what you mean. Still, if both candidates have a similar stance on a certain issue, I don't see how that issue can be considered 'up for decision' in that election in any way: there is always more than one issue to be solved, and always one candidate whose overall position resonates with you more. And even in the slighest offchance that you have zero other things you yourself are worried about, I'd say it's best to vote for the candidate whose opinion and plan can be best changed after the election, e.g. through collective action

@RonSupportsYou @benroyce @me i just assume they’re lying about their intentions. I assume that this outcome is the outcome they wanted and they just didn’t/don’t want to be seen to want this outcome.

@BenAveling @RonSupportsYou @me

this is true for the #GOP and #geopolitical #psyop #trollfarm who pushed the #toxicidealism angle- the malice that you refer to

they amplified the "#harris doesn't speak forcefully enough on #gaza, so don't #vote"

they understood the true effect: #trump wins

and they laugh all the way to the bank, because, unfortunately, these entitled, privileged morons who feel they can afford to not vote are real #americans, as stupid and as easy to manipulate as #MAGA

@benroyce @BenAveling @me
"They amplified the harris doesn't speak forcefully enough on gaza, so don't vote"?
Then all that Harris needed to do was to speak forcefully on gaza, but she refused to do so.

@RonSupportsYou @BenAveling @me

but #harris *did* speak forcefully on #gaza:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/12/02/remarks-by-vice-president-harris-on-the-conflict-between-israel-and-hamas/

but it's never enough for impotent, fragile #toxicidealism

your error is you assume you are dealing with rational people

you are not

you are dealing with people whose job #1 is to make an excuse to not participate

they will do this forever, always moving the goalpost

their idiotic, self-destructive "goal" is holy perfection, now, or they excuse themselves from social responsibility

@benroyce

You call a statement prefaced with several paragraphs of apologia for Israel's actions forceful?

You can say that folks are unreachable, but I remember the swell of enthusiasm when Biden dropped out that waned more quickly than it really should have when it became clear that she would absolutely not in fact represent a major shift from Biden with respect to Gaza.

At the end of the day, I voted Harris, but c'mon!

@benroyce @BenAveling @me
In 2023 Kamala Harris spoke of "accelerating planning for the day after the fighting" but that day has not arrived and there is no sign that it will arrive in the foreseeable future. I read the information at the link you sent to me, and Kamala Harris did not speak forcefully on Gaza. Everything she said was consistent with Israel continuing to slaughter people in Gaza for another four years. She showed no sign that she would do anything to get the Israelis to stop.

@RonSupportsYou @benroyce @me maybe. But Trump called on Israel to hurry up and get this over. You’ve seen both of them. Which one is more likely to show humanity?

@matt5sean3

you voted for harris so you're rational. thank you

but "the statement wasn't perfect enough, therefore those who helped give us trump by not voting, something much worse for gaza, is understandable..."

da fuq?

why are you making excuses for these fools?

toxic idealism which only destroys its own interests?

blame is not on harris

blame is on these impotent morons who have no idea how to make any difference in the world, actively sabotaging their own causes

all heart, no mind

@benroyce @matt5sean3 Words aren't going to stop Israel. But. The candidate with the most chance of going beyond words was Harris. Any voter who had the continued existence of Palestine as their prime objective voted Democrat.

@BenAveling @matt5sean3

exactly

and some who said gaza was their concern and therefore not to vote are merely malicious trollfarm on social media working the electorate

but also, unfortunately, the completely stupid self-destructive toxic idealist is a real kind of person

which is why the trolls work this angle

@BenAveling @benroyce

Any voter who had the survival of the Palestinian people in mind knew that an election wasn't going to change that, but they did know that they could choose to not be behind the person finishing the job. So, they got back on the protest line.

Is it a rational response? No, except for the getting back to more direct protests part, but neither is what Israel is doing?

@matt5sean3 @BenAveling @benroyce

I still can't understand how blame for the victory of the orange rapist is always laid exclusively at the feet of individuals disaffected by a genocide. Harris could have distanced herself a bit from Pres. Biden as he perpetuated an Israeli conducted genocide. The ICC may be toothless, but it does have moral authority, and Biden & Harris's full support of an indicted war criminal alienated many progressives. I voted for him, but understand those who did not

@benroyce @JeffreySmith @matt5sean3 There’s plenty of blame to go around.

@benroyce @matt5sean3 I assume there’s also ppl whose identify is based on ‘Israel most be stopped’. If Israel actually were stopped, they’d need to get a new identity.

@BenAveling @matt5sean3

well that's the other issue

if harris/ biden, somehow, miraculously, were able to change the policies and actions of israel, you are dealing with people who would then move the goalposts and find some other reason to not do their social responsibility and vote

because they don't even really care about gaza. they care about making excuses for their entitlement

@benroyce @BenAveling

So your position is that "if we give people what they want they won't vote for us anyway."

That's an awfully convenient way to absolve responsibility for not choosing more popular policies. Maybe there's some weird edge cases out there, the world is full of weirdos, but do you think there's a significant enough number that it would have flipped an election that unfortunately just was not that close.

@matt5sean3 @benroyce So we’re both agreed that the dems were better than Trump?
And we both agree they should have done more?
You claim to believe that it would have gained them more votes than it would have cost, while I doubt that is true.
So here we are. You believe they should have said more, “because it would have gotten them more votes”.
While i believe they should do more than talk, because it would be morally right.